Jump to content

What do you think about Israel-Turkey Relations?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

Well I saw these funny pictures that were taken of Erdogan in its palace with these actors that symbolized that once upon a time some Turks tribe  mattered.

 

Except of these fluffy costumes soldiers Erdogan also, once again criticized Israel. And this is leading me to the next question:

 

What the Turkish think about Israel and Turkey relations?

 

I mean 10 years ago, Israel exported weapons to Turkey's army and Ankara streets were overflowed with Israeli tourist.

Erdogan has attacked Israel many times, though most of the time, even The Arab League, hasn't attacked Israel so severely.

 

As Israeli, I ask you, why does your president act so crazily? Israel has zero territorial conflicts with Turkey, Why can't Turkey behave as 1st class nation? instead of imitating Iran? Do you really want to be the next Iran? I mean you were so close to enter the Euro Zone, but now, with that lunatic leader, well no-one takes this idea seriously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the Turkish think about Israel and Turkey relations?

 

I mean 10 years ago, Israel exported weapons to Turkey's army and Ankara streets were overflowed with Israeli tourist.

Erdogan has attacked Israel many times, though most of the time, even The Arab League, hasn't attacked Israel so severely.

 

As Israeli, I ask you, why does your president act so crazily? Israel has zero territorial conflicts with Turkey, Why can't Turkey behave as 1st class nation? instead of imitating Iran? Do you really want to be the next Iran? I mean you were so close to enter the Euro Zone, but now, with that lunatic leader, well no-one takes this idea seriously.

I suppose you believe that Netanyahoo is sane? In comparison to him, Menachem Begin, who orchestrated the 1946 bombing of the King David hotel, was a Gandhi type of saint.  Begin met with Arafat and went to Camp David and signed the first peace treaty with an Arab nation, Egypt. Arafat was murdered because he had the courage to do this.  Yitzhak Rabin was murdered because he tried to push through a peace process.

 

Erdoğan has many faults and I do not personally care for him nor his government, yet he seems to be unafraid to speak out against the excesses of the Israeli government.  He forcefully spoke out about the way he was treated at Davos in 2009 when Shimon Peres was allowed to talk overtime and then Erdoğan was not allowed to speak his allotted time. Israel enraged a lot of Turkish people over the boarding and killing of members of a relief effort on the boat the Mavi Marmara. And yet, Israeli citizens are still welcome as tourists in Turkey. Do you ever think about that?

 

I cannot comment upon what Turkish people think of the Israeli government but I do know a lot of Turkish people who have no bad feelings toward Israeli citizens, just their Zionist government. Bush, and the US government, was hated by Turkish people when he was in office, yet, as a former American, I never felt that I was discriminated against because of the country of my birth.

You mentioned Israel's arms exports, Israel ranks 6th in the world (the US and Russia bounce between 1st and 2nd).  I think that is amazing. After the US and Russia, are France, Germany and the UK each with populations in the many tens of millions while Israel has a population of a bit over 8 million? The population of New York is more and Istanbul is twice that size. Why such a frenzy to be arms merchants? Israel has a thriving IT industry, export more of that and less death and destruction.  Israel gets more than 3 Billion US dollars in foreign aid grants, meaning money it never has to pay back and yet Israel has an extremely high standard of living per person. Turkey, with a population of around 72 million got  around 29 Million, wazz dat all about?  confused1%5B1%5D.gif

 

So who is more sane?  wacko.png  I guess I would ask you, why doesn't Israel act as a "1st class nation"? Is it sane the way Netanyahoo has always handled the territorial issues, the so-called "Palestinian" problem? This argument could go on forever, but you asked and I gave my opinion.

 

Let the debates begin...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose you believe that Netanyahoo is sane? In comparison to him, Menachem Begin, who orchestrated the 1946 bombing of the King David hotel, was a Gandhi type of saintBegin met with Arafat and went to Camp David and signed the first peace treaty with an Arab nation, Egypt. Arafat was murdered because he had the courage to do this.  Yitzhak Rabin was murdered because he tried to push through a peace process.

 

Erdoğan has many faults and I do not personally care for him nor his government, yet he seems to be unafraid to speak out against the excesses of the Israeli governmentHe forcefully spoke out about the way he was treated at Davos in 2009 when Shimon Peres was allowed to talk overtime and then Erdoğan was not allowed to speak his allotted time. Israel enraged a lot of Turkish people over the boarding and killing of members of a relief effort on the boat the Mavi Marmara. And yet, Israeli citizens are still welcome as tourists in Turkey. Do you ever think about that?

 

I cannot comment upon what Turkish people think of the Israeli government but I do know a lot of Turkish people who have no bad feelings toward Israeli citizens, just their Zionist government. Bush, and the US government, was hated by Turkish people when he was in office, yet, as a former American, I never felt that I was discriminated against because of the country of my birth.

You mentioned Israel's arms exports, Israel ranks 6th in the world (the US and Russia bounce between 1st and 2nd).  I think that is amazing. After the US and Russia, are France, Germany and the UK each with populations in the many tens of millions while Israel has a population of a bit over 8 million? The population of New York is more and Istanbul is twice that size. Why such a frenzy to be arms merchants? Israel has a thriving IT industry, export more of that and less death and destruction.  Israel gets more than 3 Billion US dollars in foreign aid grants, meaning money it never has to pay back and yet Israel has an extremely high standard of living per person. Turkey, with a population of around 72 million got  around 29 Million, wazz dat all about?  confused1%5B1%5D.gif

 

So who is more sane?  wacko.png  I guess I would ask you, why doesn't Israel act as a "1st class nation"? Is it sane the way Netanyahoo has always handled the territorial issues, the so-called "Palestinian" problem? This argument could go on forever, but you asked and I gave my opinion.

 

Let the debates begin...

Netanyahu is completely sane. In Turkey, psychologists has warned that Erdugan is insane, something that hasn't happened with Netanyahu.

It is important to say that Begin had warned the hotel before he bombed it. Something which the terror groups don't do.

You are right, Israel always seeks for a fair peace.

About Arafat, well, I have nothing to say. The murder of Rabin is a tragedy for Israel.

And why is it good? Because you don't want relations with Israel? Turkey was trying to be the mediator of Syria and Israel, and Israel agreed, well till Erdugan decided he want to be a Sultan, and to demolish his country's relations.

Erdugan could have attacked the conference's moderator instead, he began to explain how his heart was broken when he saw the pictures from Gaza. Why the Israeli children can be bombarded peacefully, but the children of Gaza can't? I mean, for all coins there are 2 sides.

Great topic, why Turkey supports a flotilla which try to break Israel's sanctions? And how dare Turkey to complain, that Israel took an action, especially after it has been found out that during the interception, Turkey's citizens tried to kill Israeli soldiers?!

Well, most of the Jewish community in Israel, boycotts Turkey, So I guess that you are talking about the Arabic-Israeli population. 

But, I can comment that after we have seen the demonstrations on which, Israeli flags were burned, there is a great hate for Turkey in Israel, because it seems like the Turkish government sees Israel, as part of its Empire, and does not respect its sovereignty.

No, Israelis don't like Turkey now, because it tries to intervene their local issues, the Israelis used to love Turkey, seeing the Turkish People as one of our closest allies, and than Erdugan came and stabbed Israel in the back. 

We would like to share some of that prosperity, with a government that accepts Israel's existence. Netanyahu has already asked for forgiveness from Turkey, but for Erdugan, nothing is enough.

Israel still fights for its borders. It works for its peace, so relative to its conditions, it is quite sane.

Natanyahu did agree to 2 states solution, while the Palestinians didn't recognize Israel as a Jewish State

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I am not Turkish either but I know a lot of Turkish people have a problem with the actions of Israel such as what happened last summer.

 

I do not support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. I boycott all Israeli products where possible. Yet at the same time I am not a supporter of Erdogan.

 

Erdogan seems great speaking out against Israel however I wish it was more real than it is. Look at government controlled TV channels and one advert after the other is promoting Israeli products. I think Erdogan should take a tougher stance on Israel and properly enforce a boycott of their economic products by not allowing them to be be sold in Turkey or at least ban their advertisements on TV. However, I doubt this will happen and he is more using the Palestinian problem to fuel the passions of Muslims. 

 

What I don't like is how his discourse on Israel is causing an anti Jewish sentiment within Turkey. Jews should be allowed to live peacefully within Turkey and should not feel they are been held responsible for what is happening in Israel. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Standardwithisrael", you do not seem to recognize that your statement "Palestinians didn't recognize Israel as a Jewish State" reeks of racism and is representative of your entire apartheid argument. I suggest that Germany should require all countries in the world to recognize it as a Lutheran state, proclaim laws that give Lutherans advantages over every other religion, establish colonies on internationally recognized jewish land where only Lutherans are allowed to live, even set up a bus system and a road network where only Lutherans are allowed to drive, destroy jewish homes and farms because we all know that God gave Germany to the Lutherans, and etc, and etc. This is the reality in Israel, and most Israelis do not see this as evil, they see it as a completely natural state of existence. Of course,there are Israeli Jews who do recognize what a abomination the Zionist state of Israel is.

I congratulate Erdogan for at least having the guts to speak up, whatever his reasons may be. At least it is more than those cowardly countries inEurope can manage. I congratulate Palestine's accession to the International Criminal Court. And success to BDS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Netanyahu is completely sane.

It is important to say that Begin had warned the hotel before he bombed it. Something which the terror groups don't do.

You are right, Israel always seeks for a fair peace.

Erdugan could have attacked the conference's moderator instead, he began to explain how his heart was broken when he saw the pictures from Gaza. Why the Israeli children can be bombarded peacefully, but the children of Gaza can't? I mean, for all coins there are 2 sides.

 

Great topic, why Turkey supports a flotilla which try to break Israel's sanctions? And how dare Turkey to complain, that Israel took an action, especially after it has been found out that during the interception, Turkey's citizens tried to kill Israeli soldiers?!

 

Well, most of the Jewish community in Israel, boycotts Turkey,

 

We would like to share some of that prosperity, with a government that accepts Israel's existence.

 

Israel still fights for its borders. It works for its peace, so relative to its conditions, it is quite sane.

 

Natanyahu did agree to 2 states solution, while the Palestinians didn't recognize Israel as a Jewish State

I spelled his name correctly when I wrote NetanYAHOO. He makes Erdoğan look like Gandhi in comparison and that makes me sick to say as I am clearly no fan of Erdoğan. NetanYAHOO wants to rid the entire area of Arabs.

 

Children?  ErrDOAWN and NetanYAHOO are the two sides to the same coin.  This is at best a morally ambigious argument and at worst a sad one because when children die on either side, that is the tragedy, there can be no moral high ground when comparing the numbers of children killed in a war.

 

Peace? I never said Israel wants a fair peace, what they really want is more than a fair piece of Arab land. NetanYAHOO only wants peace as long as it is with Zionists.

 

Begin? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Same is true with Palestinians you brand as terrorists. Israel engages in State terrorism and the United States continues to give you aid. Shameful.

 

Flotilla? Armed Israeli commandos against boat crews and peaceniks? Someone on the boat attempted to defend himself against an armed invader and was murdered for the effort.

 

Israeli boycott? If Israeli citizens are boycotting Turkey, that is totally insignificant. The population of Israel is less than half the size of Istanbul.  Continue the boycott, it does not seem to have affected the Turkish economy any.

 

Borders?  Israel does not seem to know the limits of its borders. The borders seem to change according to the whims of the Israeli military and whether the government is an extremely insane Zionist or a moderate and sane government.  In order to be recognized as a state it needs "a permanent population; a defined territory; government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states."

 

Two States? The partition plan of 1947 created two states, one Arab one Jewish.  However, Ben Gurion and other Zionist leaders did not want to define borders because they wanted the "option" to expand as they determined it necessary or expedient.  According to The hidden documents that reveal the true borders of Israel and Palestine (Updated)

On May 14, 1948, Eliahu Epstein, the representative of the Jewish Agency in Washington, wrote in a letter to then President Truman; "the State of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within the frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947."

"The resolution referred to, UNGA Resolution 181, recommended the partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Zionist leadership had publicly accepted the Partition Plan, and this letter defines the borders of Israel to be those specified in the Plan."

I have always been a fan of Israelis, their democratic values, their ability to make the desert green, the kibbutzim, the Sabrahs, and that Jews finally had a homeland.  In their dealings with the Palestinians, Israel has squandered the good will the majority of the world has had toward her.  That is the shame of the matter and it is sad to contemplate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I am not Turkish either but I know a lot of Turkish people have a problem with the actions of Israel such as what happened last summer.

 

I do not support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. I boycott all Israeli products where possible. Yet at the same time I am not a supporter of Erdogan.

 

Erdogan seems great speaking out against Israel however I wish it was more real than it is. Look at government controlled TV channels and one advert after the other is promoting Israeli products. I think Erdogan should take a tougher stance on Israel and properly enforce a boycott of their economic products by not allowing them to be be sold in Turkey or at least ban their advertisements on TV. However, I doubt this will happen and he is more using the Palestinian problem to fuel the passions of Muslims. 

 

What I don't like is how his discourse on Israel is causing an anti Jewish sentiment within Turkey. Jews should be allowed to live peacefully within Turkey and should not feel they are been held responsible for what is happening in Israel. 

What happened between Israel and the Palestinians is none of Turkey's business.

I condemn you. Israel hasn't done anything wrong to you. I suppose that you also boycott Chinese products, because what China does to Tibet, and boycott Turkey because what it has been doing in Cyprus and to the Kurdish. Or Russia, Or a lot many other nations.

Erdugan knows that the main loser of this action, will be Turkey. Turkey has nothing with Hamas, or at least Attaturk's Turkey.

Erdugan, and most of the Muslims communities in the Middle East don't believe that a Jewish state should have been created.

 

"Standardwithisrael", you do not seem to recognize that your statement "Palestinians didn't recognize Israel as a Jewish State" reeks of racism and is representative of your entire apartheid argument. I suggest that Germany should require all countries in the world to recognize it as a Lutheran state, proclaim laws that give Lutherans advantages over every other religion, establish colonies on internationally recognized jewish land where only Lutherans are allowed to live, even set up a bus system and a road network where only Lutherans are allowed to drive, destroy jewish homes and farms because we all know that God gave Germany to the Lutherans, and etc, and etc. This is the reality in Israel, and most Israelis do not see this as evil, they see it as a completely natural state of existence. Of course,there are Israeli Jews who do recognize what a abomination the Zionist state of Israel is.

I congratulate Erdogan for at least having the guts to speak up, whatever his reasons may be. At least it is more than those cowardly countries inEurope can manage. I congratulate Palestine's accession to the International Criminal Court. And success to BDS.

This comment is very biased. There is no an apartheid regime in Israel. The Palestinians had committed along the history a lot of terror attacks against Israeli civilians.  This led to the creation of the wall. This is not apartheid, it is very common that international borders are marked and secured by walls, for example Spain-Morocco, the USA-Mexico.

Israel is not Nazi nor German nor Lutheran.

To be a Jew is not different from being a part of any other ethnicity.

The BDS doesn't boycott other conflicts around the world, including: Sudan, China,Turkey,Russia and many other.

All of the conflicts I mentioned are far more human rights-violating. The question is why.

The answer is the Muslim lobby in Europe.

Yes, mass immigration of anti-Israel immigrants can change politics.

 

I spelled his name correctly when I wrote NetanYAHOO. He makes Erdoğan look like Gandhi in comparison and that makes me sick to say as I am clearly no fan of Erdoğan. NetanYAHOO wants to rid the entire area of Arabs.

 

Children?  ErrDOAWN and NetanYAHOO are the two sides to the same coin.  This is at best a morally ambigious argument and at worst a sad one because when children die on either side, that is the tragedy, there can be no moral high ground when comparing the numbers of children killed in a war.

 

Peace? I never said Israel wants a fair peace, what they really want is more than a fair piece of Arab land. NetanYAHOO only wants peace as long as it is with Zionists.

 

Begin? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Same is true with Palestinians you brand as terrorists. Israel engages in State terrorism and the United States continues to give you aid. Shameful.

 

Flotilla? Armed Israeli commandos against boat crews and peaceniks? Someone on the boat attempted to defend himself against an armed invader and was murdered for the effort.

 

Israeli boycott? If Israeli citizens are boycotting Turkey, that is totally insignificant. The population of Israel is less than half the size of Istanbul.  Continue the boycott, it does not seem to have affected the Turkish economy any.

 

Borders?  Israel does not seem to know the limits of its borders. The borders seem to change according to the whims of the Israeli military and whether the government is an extremely insane Zionist or a moderate and sane government.  In order to be recognized as a state it needs "a permanent population; a defined territory; government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other states."

 

Two States? The partition plan of 1947 created two states, one Arab one Jewish.  However, Ben Gurion and other Zionist leaders did not want to define borders because they wanted the "option" to expand as they determined it necessary or expedient.  According to The hidden documents that reveal the true borders of Israel and Palestine (Updated)

On May 14, 1948, Eliahu Epstein, the representative of the Jewish Agency in Washington, wrote in a letter to then President Truman; "the State of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within the frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947."

"The resolution referred to, UNGA Resolution 181, recommended the partition of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Zionist leadership had publicly accepted the Partition Plan, and this letter defines the borders of Israel to be those specified in the Plan."

I have always been a fan of Israelis, their democratic values, their ability to make the desert green, the kibbutzim, the Sabrahs, and that Jews finally had a homeland.  In their dealings with the Palestinians, Israel has squandered the good will the majority of the world has had toward her.  That is the shame of the matter and it is sad to contemplate.

Well I believe you aren't a great fan of Yahoo either, are you?

Netanyahau, has never said that Palestinians should be expelled from the Middle East. This is a propagandized lie.

Israel did NOT begin the last conflict in the middle east. It began with 48 hours of rocket launching by Hamas. Israel did not response. In all of this time, Israel proposed to Hamas to cease the fire.

Hamas continued. We are not going to apologize that we are stronger. We are not going to sacrifice children, so the death tally in both sides will be even. Hamas began the last war, and it is to blame about the death of Palestinians children. Can you imagine the UK or Turkey letting a terror organization to bombard their cities? I can't.  

I'm not sure that I've understood what you want to say. The Arab world controls about 13 million km^2. Israel territorial ambitions, even if you include the Bank, and the Strip and the Heights, is about 28,000 km^2. I'm trying to understand, can't the Jews have less than 0.3% of the Middle east territory?! A territory, which was settled by them even before the prophet began to conquer the Middle East? A territory with no much water or oil reserves?!

Can't they?!

 

I'm trying to understand about which terrorism you talk about. If Israel had attacked a civilian population, no one would have survived.

 

You got a very strange definition about peacekeepers. Are peacekeepers armed with weapon? Do they pray for killing JEWS? Israel experienced a lot of flotillas during that period. All were guided peacefully to the harbor. Only in the Marmara  there was a fight. International jurists who are hired by the UN which doesn't like Israel (well that what you get when there are 56 Muslim countries there)  said that Israel hadn't violated the international law.

We don't want to harm Turkey, we want to be safe, a thing that Israeli can't be in Turkey, and we want you to understand that Turkey, can't be the knight of a nation which has a conflict with us, and mainlining normal relations with us.

You can say, that you don't recognize Israel. You can. 

Legally, you are wrong. The European Union doesn't have clear borders. For example, France has territories across the oceans, which are exempt from the union's law. So you can say that this union is not a country, though it will be odd, if you do recognize that is a cluster of countries, which is far more greater than a country supposedly. While Israel does have exact legal borders, all 48-67 territories + East Jerusalem+ Golan Heights+ villages that were split by the 67 borders and have asked to merge. So according your definition, Israel is a country.

You've forgotten, that Israel actually accepted this treaty, but the Arabs didn't. Instead, they invited 5 more countries(including Iraq which doesn't even border with Israel) to fight against Israel. Against the odds, the little nation, that 3 years earlier was almost destroyed by the Nazis, managed with a heavy blood price, to win those cruel countries, and even to capture territories. The treaty was based on the agreement of both sides. No Arab country had recognized Israel's existence till Israel-Egypt peace accords (in which Israel withdrew from 75% of its territory!), So speaking about a one-side treaty from '48 is irrelevant. The PLO has also agreed that this treaty is irrelevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have said what I believe needs to be said. These arguments have been going on for a long time now amongst people far more clever and informed that we are. Essentially what you are saying is that Zionists believe they are being picked on by the rest of the world. They have a seige mentality.   I find it difficult to believe they speak for a majority of the Israeli population and the Jewish diaspora; at least I hope they do not.

Even with the very powerful Israeli (aka Zionist) lobby in Washington cranking out rationales for what the Israeli government is doing, the Zionists have dug themselves into a deep hole and created for themselves a bad reputation. There are many Jewish writers and intellectuals who now speak out against Israeli (Zionist) government policy, something that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. In the so-called "western" world where Muslim bashing and mistrust has never been higher, Israel has still managed to have gotten itself a reputation as the "bad guy" in the Middle East.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have said what I believe needs to be said. These arguments have been going on for a long time now amongst people far more clever and informed that we are. Essentially what you are saying is that Zionists believe they are being picked on by the rest of the world. They have a seige mentality.   I find it difficult to believe they speak for a majority of the Israeli population and the Jewish diaspora; at least I hope they do not.

Even with the very powerful Israeli (aka Zionist) lobby in Washington cranking out rationales for what the Israeli government is doing, the Zionists have dug themselves into a deep hole and created for themselves a bad reputation. There are many Jewish writers and intellectuals who now speak out against Israeli (Zionist) government policy, something that would have been unthinkable a decade ago. In the so-called "western" world where Muslim bashing and mistrust has never been higher, Israel has still managed to have gotten itself a reputation as the "bad guy" in the Middle East.

First of all, Zionism is not a course, like YTY isn't. Most of the Jewish community in Israel, define themselves as Zionists.

I've mentioned few conflicts around the world, which doesn't get the same attention as The Israeli-Palestinian one. It's very hard to explain why it gets this attention if not because of the antisemitism that there is in the world.

Have you thought that this is because a Muslim lobby?

see:

I believe that , there is a lobby which works to present Israel as something that it isn't.

Let me understand, you condemn that Jews have free thought, and the Israeli Jews don't haunt them? There are many Muslims who support Israel, and was portrayed as traitors in their countries, some have lost their citizenship.

What are you talking about the far right parties in the EU? most of them are negligible. While in the mainstream parties, for example the  labor in the UK there are districts who didn't pick non Muslim for decades. Surprisingly, those districts have a great Muslim population. Well of course that is their right, but yet, it shows that the Muslims still have a great influence of Europe's politics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your anti-Muslim fanatacism is showing, cool your jets. kicking%5B1%5D.gif

 

You wrote: "Let me understand, you condemn that Jews have free thought, and the Israeli Jews don't haunt them?"

 

My answer is no, or at least I think it is because your question is not very clear

 

It is really easy to fall back on anti-Jewish discrimination (aka anti-semitism) instead of making an argument. Most groups who feel the pressure of discrimination use the same shrill cry. Simply crying anti-semitism is not an argument and lacks clarity of thought. It is certainly not relevant to the issue of claims of Israeli aggression or Israel-Turkey relations.

 

If one is an anti-semite then an argument can be made that they are also against Arabs which, for the most part are Muslims.

According to Dictionary.com, a semite is:
1.
a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.
2.
a Jew.
3.
a member of any of the peoples descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.


Merriam-webster online defines a semite as:
1
a :  a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b :  a descendant of these peoples
2
:  a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

 

The anti-semitisim to which you refer "came by a circuitous route to refer most commonly to one hostile or discriminatory towards Jews in particular." According to Wikipedia.

Merriam-Webster has a very full discussion of anti-semitism. It seems the term did not come into vogue until the late 19th century:
"Although the term anti-Semitism has wide currency, it is regarded by some as a misnomer, implying discrimination against all Semites, including Arabs"

 

And since you commented upon Zionism, read the text of a talk given by Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss there is a difference between Zionism and Judaism. He states "Aren’t the two one and the same? Isn’t Judaism Zionism? Aren’t Jews by definition Zionists? This is an impression which is, as I hope will become absolutely clear by the end of this talk, totally false. It is, however, an impression that is today quite widespread, both among non – Jews as well as misinformed Jews."

He goes on to state "Why has the lie, which equates Judaism and Zionism, triumphed? Why, has what is so demonstrably false, captured the citadels of Western public opinion?"

And, he states " Zionist propagandists are always given to bullying tactics and censorship. It is very helpful in this regard to read former Congressman Findley’s book, They Dared to Speak Out. It is the sorry record of the
immense resources that the Zionist lobby invested in destroying the careers of politicians all across the United States who had voiced some qualms about this nation’s subservience to Israel."

 

Of course you will disagree and tell us he is traitor to Judiasm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your anti-Muslim fanatacism is showing, cool your jets. kicking%5B1%5D.gif

 

You wrote: "Let me understand, you condemn that Jews have free thought, and the Israeli Jews don't haunt them?"

 

My answer is no, or at least I think it is because your question is not very clear

 

It is really easy to fall back on anti-Jewish discrimination (aka anti-semitism) instead of making an argument. Most groups who feel the pressure of discrimination use the same shrill cry. Simply crying anti-semitism is not an argument and lacks clarity of thought. It is certainly not relevant to the issue of claims of Israeli aggression or Israel-Turkey relations.

 

If one is an anti-semite then an argument can be made that they are also against Arabs which, for the most part are Muslims.

According to Dictionary.com, a semite is:

1.

a member of any of various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.

2.

a Jew.

3.

a member of any of the peoples descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.

Merriam-webster online defines a semite as:

1

a :  a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs

b :  a descendant of these peoples

2

:  a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

 

The anti-semitisim to which you refer "came by a circuitous route to refer most commonly to one hostile or discriminatory towards Jews in particular." According to Wikipedia.

Merriam-Webster has a very full discussion of anti-semitism. It seems the term did not come into vogue until the late 19th century:

"Although the term anti-Semitism has wide currency, it is regarded by some as a misnomer, implying discrimination against all Semites, including Arabs"

 

And since you commented upon Zionism, read the text of a talk given by Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss there is a difference between Zionism and Judaism. He states "Aren’t the two one and the same? Isn’t Judaism Zionism? Aren’t Jews by definition Zionists? This is an impression which is, as I hope will become absolutely clear by the end of this talk, totally false. It is, however, an impression that is today quite widespread, both among non – Jews as well as misinformed Jews."

He goes on to state "Why has the lie, which equates Judaism and Zionism, triumphed? Why, has what is so demonstrably false, captured the citadels of Western public opinion?"

And, he states " Zionist propagandists are always given to bullying tactics and censorship. It is very helpful in this regard to read former Congressman Findley’s book, They Dared to Speak Out. It is the sorry record of the

immense resources that the Zionist lobby invested in destroying the careers of politicians all across the United States who had voiced some qualms about this nation’s subservience to Israel."

 

Of course you will disagree and tell us he is traitor to Judiasm.

I'm not Islamophobic, though I do hate Muslim communities who traditionally support the Palestinians, though they are not in the Middle East, and try to prevent from Jewish communities to protest in favor of Israel.

Please answer, why for example Crimea doesn't get the same attention as "Palestine" though it is equal in scale?

I refer antisemitism as hating a Jew because he is a Jew. That is the common meaning

I claim, that the Arab nations hate Jews (and also mostly call the Israelis "The Jews"), and that is the reason of which they fought for the Palestinians.

​Judaism is a diverse religion. Relative to the size of its follower, probably one of the most diverse in the Middle East, you can find Pro Israelis and Anti-Israelis , because in the Jewish tradition brotherhood is a great value . So no one boycotts the other, so there are a lot of ideas in Judaism, not all of them are acceptable for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You wrote:

I'm not Islamophobic, though I do hate Muslim communities who traditionally support the Palestinians, though they are not in the Middle East, and try to prevent from Jewish communities to protest in favor of Israel.

 

Would you say it is OK for ADL and JDL organisations, funded by the Israeli government to intimidate and harass pro-Palestinian organisations world-wide? Is that OK with you? American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) finances chapters that are dedicated solely to promoting and defending Israel's image on campus. The Israel Action Network, the David Project, the AMCHA initiative and Project Interchange are heavily funded organizations that operate by actively trying to "drive a wedge between students and their university administrators, and to denigrate Palestinian activism by labeling it anti-Semitic."

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), for example, actually coaches university administrations on how to oppose Palestinian activism; it even implies financial threats which are backed by AIPAC and other Jewish sponsored powers in the U.

S.

 

Again, if all fails, fall back on accusations of anti-semitism, no one wants to seem to be anti-Jewish.

 

I claim, that the Arab nations hate Jews (and also mostly call the Israelis "The Jews"), and that is the reason of which they fought for the Palestinians.

 

I think you should ask yourself why this might be?  What has Israel actually done to try to make peace with Arab States except for Egypt?  "The Jews"? Are you kidding me? Are Israelis Jews or are they not? Anyone who is Jewish can immigrate, non-Jews wait in line, do they not? It is a Jewish State, is it not? So why the problem with "The Jews"? You should be asking if all the people of the Arab nations hate Jews and what about countries with majority Muslim populations such as Turkey, Indonesia or Malayasia? You better hope they do not, there are nearly 2 billion Muslims world-wide. That is a fallacy that a visit to Turkey, among other Muslim countries would easily prove.

 

​Judaism is a diverse religion. Relative to the size of its follower, probably one of the most diverse in the Middle East, you can find Pro Israelis and Anti-Israelis , because in the Jewish tradition brotherhood is a great value . So no one boycotts the other, so there are a lot of ideas in Judaism, not all of them are acceptable for me.

 

So if a Jewish person is critical of Israeli policy toward Palestinians are they anti-Semitic?

So if a Jewish person says that Judiasm and Zionism are not the same thing, are they anti-semitic?

So if a Jewish person says that Zionists are the problem in Israel, are they anti-semitic?

Stop playing the discrimination card and ask yourself why the credibility of Israel has fallen to an all-time low in the last 20 years.

 

Virtually all of the Jewish people I have known do or did not seem themselves as victims, even the old men and women I met in Florida who had tattoos on their arms from the camps. They did see themselves as survivors and supported a Jewish homeland, a place of refuge far from pogroms and gas chambers and ovens, even though they lived in peace in Florida. They did not care for the extreme zealots, neither the religious fundamentalists nor the right-wing Zionist politicians who supported these fundamentalists.

 

True story. A Jewish friend of mine called Michael and I had just gotten out of Uncle Sam's "green machine" (aka US military) back in late '69. We looked up the JDL in Texas. The guy we met reminded me of all the southern roustabouts I had known previously and his racist grudges were just as deep. He was carrying a sidearm. (After all he was a Zionist--in Texass) We had finished telling him about maybe wanting to join up with the Israeli army (a lot of non-Jewish military veterans were going over there at the time) and had given him a brief background on the skills we had picked up. He seemed to think we had what he was looking for. Then he said, "the only good Arab is a dead Arab" paraphrasing US Army Gen. Philip Sheridan commenting upon the indigenous people in North America. After he said this, Michael looked at him for a couple of minutes, an angry silence came over the room, and Michael finally stood up and said it was time to go. We never went back. We had had enough of that sorry attitude. We did not have the benefit of Google in the late '60's so we did not as much at the time about the JDL as we found out later. What we discovered confirmed we had made the right decision. Look up the JDL and Meir Kahane and you will find Zionism writ large all over the organisation. The JDL is the Ku Klux Klan of Israel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What happened between Israel and the Palestinians is none of Turkey's business.

 

It is not particularly Turkey's business, it is the whole world's business. Why do you think that while Israel massacres innocent civilians that nobody will say anything. Mind you, Netanyahu was quick to travel to Paris recently, I could say that it was also none of his business. 

 

I condemn you. Israel hasn't done anything wrong to you.

 

Oh my..condemned I am! 

 

I suppose that you also boycott Chinese products, because what China does to Tibet, and boycott Turkey because what it has been doing in Cyprus and to the Kurdish. Or Russia, Or a lot many other nations.

 

No, to be honest I just boycott Israeli goods. Other countries tend to be sanctioned when they do something wrong but Israel gets away with a lot, having a best buddy on the UN Security Council. I feel more passionate about economically boycotting Israel. 

 

Erdugan knows that the main loser of this action, will be Turkey. Turkey has nothing with Hamas, or at least Attaturk's Turkey.

Erdugan, and most of the Muslims communities in the Middle East don't believe that a Jewish state should have been created.

 

I don't think that Turkey will lose a lot really. I mean Israel has more to lose as it will become more isolated in that region of the world. Well I am not anti Jewish or anything like that. Yet the creation of Israel was a very colonial plan and little was done at the time to think of the future consequences. Technically we could all go back in time and say our ancestors lived somewhere and therefore we have a right to go back. But this arrogant attitude Zionists hold that they have more of a right than any other group of people to live there is not something I agree with. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You wrote:

I'm not Islamophobic, though I do hate Muslim communities who traditionally support the Palestinians, though they are not in the Middle East, and try to prevent from Jewish communities to protest in favor of Israel.

 

Would you say it is OK for ADL and JDL organisations, funded by the Israeli government to intimidate and harass pro-Palestinian organisations world-wide? Is that OK with you? American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) finances chapters that are dedicated solely to promoting and defending Israel's image on campus. The Israel Action Network, the David Project, the AMCHA initiative and Project Interchange are heavily funded organizations that operate by actively trying to "drive a wedge between students and their university administrators, and to denigrate Palestinian activism by labeling it anti-Semitic."

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), for example, actually coaches university administrations on how to oppose Palestinian activism; it even implies financial threats which are backed by AIPAC and other Jewish sponsored powers in the U.

S.

 

Again, if all fails, fall back on accusations of anti-semitism, no one wants to seem to be anti-Jewish.

 

I claim, that the Arab nations hate Jews (and also mostly call the Israelis "The Jews"), and that is the reason of which they fought for the Palestinians.

 

I think you should ask yourself why this might be?  What has Israel actually done to try to make peace with Arab States except for Egypt?  "The Jews"? Are you kidding me? Are Israelis Jews or are they not? Anyone who is Jewish can immigrate, non-Jews wait in line, do they not? It is a Jewish State, is it not? So why the problem with "The Jews"? You should be asking if all the people of the Arab nations hate Jews and what about countries with majority Muslim populations such as Turkey, Indonesia or Malayasia? You better hope they do not, there are nearly 2 billion Muslims world-wide. That is a fallacy that a visit to Turkey, among other Muslim countries would easily prove.

 

​Judaism is a diverse religion. Relative to the size of its follower, probably one of the most diverse in the Middle East, you can find Pro Israelis and Anti-Israelis , because in the Jewish tradition brotherhood is a great value . So no one boycotts the other, so there are a lot of ideas in Judaism, not all of them are acceptable for me.

 

So if a Jewish person is critical of Israeli policy toward Palestinians are they anti-Semitic?

So if a Jewish person says that Judiasm and Zionism are not the same thing, are they anti-semitic?

So if a Jewish person says that Zionists are the problem in Israel, are they anti-semitic?

Stop playing the discrimination card and ask yourself why the credibility of Israel has fallen to an all-time low in the last 20 years.

 

Virtually all of the Jewish people I have known do or did not seem themselves as victims, even the old men and women I met in Florida who had tattoos on their arms from the camps. They did see themselves as survivors and supported a Jewish homeland, a place of refuge far from pogroms and gas chambers and ovens, even though they lived in peace in Florida. They did not care for the extreme zealots, neither the religious fundamentalists nor the right-wing Zionist politicians who supported these fundamentalists.

 

True story. A Jewish friend of mine called Michael and I had just gotten out of Uncle Sam's "green machine" (aka US military) back in late '69. We looked up the JDL in Texas. The guy we met reminded me of all the southern roustabouts I had known previously and his racist grudges were just as deep. He was carrying a sidearm. (After all he was a Zionist--in Texass) We had finished telling him about maybe wanting to join up with the Israeli army (a lot of non-Jewish military veterans were going over there at the time) and had given him a brief background on the skills we had picked up. He seemed to think we had what he was looking for. Then he said, "the only good Arab is a dead Arab" paraphrasing US Army Gen. Philip Sheridan commenting upon the indigenous people in North America. After he said this, Michael looked at him for a couple of minutes, an angry silence came over the room, and Michael finally stood up and said it was time to go. We never went back. We had had enough of that sorry attitude. We did not have the benefit of Google in the late '60's so we did not as much at the time about the JDL as we found out later. What we discovered confirmed we had made the right decision. Look up the JDL and Meir Kahane and you will find Zionism writ large all over the organisation. The JDL is the Ku Klux Klan of Israel.

Well, The ADL doesn't call for operations against other nation does it? it works for the benefit of Israel, but it doesn't campaign against the Turkish human rights violations.

The ADL only corrects "mistakes" that were made surprisingly by pro-Palestinians activists.

​Well, it was approved in this topic, that usually Turkish don't like Israel neither.

Israeli is the home state for the Jewish nation, though there are Jews in other places in the world, so Israel is not "The Jews", its citizens are "Israeli" not "Jews". In fact, 17% of its population is Arabic. So Israel≠ Jews.

Why did the Arab nation begin the war in '48? It was against UN resolution, so why did they?

Because they couldn't imagine that, a Jewish state will be unified at the Middle East. They couldn't think, that A Muslim will share his land with A Jew. Why would he? In '48 the Jews were compared  to sons of pigs. In Qatar you can still find it on the news.

No, but surprisingly 4 members of one of these communities, just executed non-Israeli Jews in Paris.

They went to non-Israeli Kosher market. Why haven't they attacked for example the Hindu community in Paris? In Islam, it is a greater sin to be Hindu than a Jew. We all know why, some of the Imams on the mosques preach for antisemitism.

Well, I don't vote for the right-wing in Israel, but it is not related to the discussion. The right-wing of Israel is not different from right-wings of any country.

It is conservative and national.

You'll find racists in every nation in this little planet. Israel , or the supporter of Israel are not exception. Though I don't accept those thought, I don't think it is something that is unique to Israel.

Turkey was founded like 900 years ago? Israel has a 3400 years old heritage. So if Israel invaded the Middle east, so did Turkey, and the "Palestinians" which heard about this land 1300 years ago, and hadn't settled it, well till the Jews showed interest there.

It is not particularly Turkey's business, it is the whole world's business. Why do you think that while Israel massacres innocent civilians that nobody will say anything. Mind you, Netanyahu was quick to travel to Paris recently, I could say that it was also none of his business. 

 

Oh my..condemned I am! 

 

No, to be honest I just boycott Israeli goods. Other countries tend to be sanctioned when they do something wrong but Israel gets away with a lot, having a best buddy on the UN Security Council. I feel more passionate about economically boycotting Israel. 

 

I don't think that Turkey will lose a lot really. I mean Israel has more to lose as it will become more isolated in that region of the world. Well I am not anti Jewish or anything like that. Yet the creation of Israel was a very colonial plan and little was done at the time to think of the future consequences. Technically we could all go back in time and say our ancestors lived somewhere and therefore we have a right to go back. But this arrogant attitude Zionists hold that they have more of a right than any other group of people to live there is not something I agree with. 

The president of France had invited him, though it was later denied, Arabic lobby in the French Parliament, I didn't understand why they had to get this announcement.

Well, because you are so humanist, you wouldn't mind that inspectors will go to Turkish Kurdistan, and will photographed, The Turkish Army operations, Would you?

Should I understand that you mock yourself? Well, I haven't seen sanctions against Turkey, though it occupies Kurdistan, which is far more large than "Palestine", and I haven't seen it, paying for the families of the Armenian Genocide, and I haven't seen Turkey withdrawing from Cyprus. So it leads me to the question, why Israel? Boycott yourself first.

Well, I can promise you that if he could Erdugan would do it.

I can't get what is colonial of returning to your fatherland. No, I can't.

The Jews were removed forcefully by the Romans. Their land was taken illegally.

The UN has approved and recognized that a Jewish nation in "Palestine" is legitimate.

Erdugan has lately announced that the Turkish people is descanted of Asiatic tribes who invaded westward.

As a Turkish, would you agree to return to Mongolia and East Kazakhstan?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your technicolor writing is too hard to follow, and I do not think it is necessary to reply to blatantly racist comments.

Hobbit and destiny are doing a good job of answering you here. Israel is an apartheid state, no less person that Bishop Tutu of Soth Africa has confirmed that. For more info, go to this site: it'sapartheid.org. There you will find all your Israeli racist laws laid out in black and white. You may also find Shlomo Sand's book, "The Invention of the Jewish People", and "The Invention of the Land of Israel", laying out and documenting in detail the mythology Israel uses as historical facts. In sum, the Jewish tribes in Palestine were nothing more that one more group of goat herders among many other tribes, nothing in the Old Testament has been historically or archaeologically proven. I saw with my own eyes the little ivory pomegranate that the Israel Museum paid 50 000 dollars and which was supposed to come from Solomon's temple. Fake.

I have been to Palestine. I have driven on those roads that are forbidden to Palestinians.. I have seen what the colonists have done to Hebron. I have seen those uprooted and burned olive trees. I have read the UN reports on Israeli atrocities committed in Gaza. I infinitely prefer Turkey to Israel. Turkey has issues, but it is not a self -righteous, God-gave-us-the-land bunch of 19th century colonialists. Erdogan may be over the top for some people, but his regime has brought quite a bit of prosperity to Turkey, and all without American aid. Where would Israel be without the Three Billion Dollars of US taxpayer money it receives annually.? Not to mention all those wealthy American Jews that can make tax-free donations to Israeli apartheid.

I could write more, but there is no point. All empires collapse. Think of the Soviet empire. Who remembers the Crusader states in Palestine? Do you know there was a King of Jerusalem for almost 100 years who came from England and set himself and his inheritors up as a King in a foreign country? Kinda reminds you of the present regime in Israel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I am not Turkish so I don't know why you are insulting me as such. You know there are other people, non Muslims, non Turkish, who do not support the actions of Israel. I know you are going to tell me there is a big lobby in every government against the Jews. Play the victim but people don't always buy it. We are no longer living in 1940s Europe. This is 2015 and Israel is far from being the victim. I am deeply passionate about supporting the Palestinians and it has nothing got to do with religion or nationality. It is a choice of what I believe is right and wrong. Too bad if you don't agree but your opinion is not going to influence me.

 

I'll continue with my boycotting :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your technicolor writing is too hard to follow, and I do not think it is necessary to reply to blatantly racist comments.

Hobbit and destiny are doing a good job of answering you here. Israel is an apartheid state, no less person that Bishop Tutu of Soth Africa has confirmed that. For more info, go to this site: it'sapartheid.org. There you will find all your Israeli racist laws laid out in black and white. You may also find Shlomo Sand's book, "The Invention of the Jewish People", and "The Invention of the Land of Israel", laying out and documenting in detail the mythology Israel uses as historical facts. In sum, the Jewish tribes in Palestine were nothing more that one more group of goat herders among many other tribes, nothing in the Old Testament has been historically or archaeologically proven. I saw with my own eyes the little ivory pomegranate that the Israel Museum paid 50 000 dollars and which was supposed to come from Solomon's temple. Fake.

I have been to Palestine. I have driven on those roads that are forbidden to Palestinians.. I have seen what the colonists have done to Hebron. I have seen those uprooted and burned olive trees. I have read the UN reports on Israeli atrocities committed in Gaza. I infinitely prefer Turkey to Israel. Turkey has issues, but it is not a self -righteous, God-gave-us-the-land bunch of 19th century colonialists. Erdogan may be over the top for some people, but his regime has brought quite a bit of prosperity to Turkey, and all without American aid. Where would Israel be without the Three Billion Dollars of US taxpayer money it receives annually.? Not to mention all those wealthy American Jews that can make tax-free donations to Israeli apartheid.

I could write more, but there is no point. All empires collapse. Think of the Soviet empire. Who remembers the Crusader states in Palestine? Do you know there was a King of Jerusalem for almost 100 years who came from England and set himself and his inheritors up as a King in a foreign country? Kinda reminds you of the present regime in Israel.

 

I'm not a racist, nobody has mentioned anything about race. And I'm not Islamophobic.

The hate for Jewish heritage in some of the Muslim communities in Europe, is unique by its severity.

The same communities which send now, troops to ISIS. Or this is being racist too? Okay, some communities we won't mention, which send troops to a terror organization which kills everything that is not as this community. Fair enough? Hypocrite.

I've Heard about Bishop Tutu and his dramatic announcement. Even in South Africa his opinions are controversial. Well it's nice that you and your friend can open sites, Though true facts aren't shown there. you didn't mention any from this "apartheid laws", maybe because you don't believe those claims?

Shlomo Sand's opinion are not considered as science by most the genetic science research community, it once has been said, that his research are "political biased", and doesn't meet with the scientific requirements.

We actually do have evidence that the Jews were in Israel 2000 years ago. see: The Great Jewish revolt. Actually, the Romans documented the existence of Jews, and counted them. further more, they documented their Holiest temple on the temple mountain, which on it lays the Al-Aqsda mosque today. I believe that Israel's greatness is for example that though this mosque is on the holiest place for the Jews in the world, Israel hasn't destroyed it.

The Babylons wrote about Israel, and the Egyptians by the way, also referenced to a people they called "Isriar". In ancient Egyptian there wasn't the consonant of \L\.

I would like to refer you to Tel Dan Stele which clearly names "Israel" as its greatest enemy.

I actually have more archaeological proofs that, Israel is not invention, though I believe I proved my case. If you want more, I'll be more than happy to write you.

Well Palestine declared its independence in 1964, so why can't be an international border between Israel and Palestine? I mean, if it is another country, which doesn't want to be part of Israel, why can't Israel have a border with it? It's like claiming that Mexicans can't drive at Texas. Well sure they can't it's not their country.

Israel condemn the burning of the olive trees, and tries to prevent from this happening. Outlaws are present in any country at the planet. Did Palestine stop people from burning persons? Nope. I see, you prefer burning persons to burning olive trees. Well, shame on you. 

I can't understand, why Jewish can't settle Hebron, but Arabs can settle Jerusalem. And you call me a racist?

Erdugan is returning his country to the ottoman era, not by its political influence that wasn't great at anytime, but the life standards of its citizens.

Israel will continue to be rich, even if the American aid will be halted. It will be just more close to Turkey, though it will be still rich.

Yeah, some of the Anti-Israelists, like to compare Israel to the crusaders' states, though there are great difference. Well, for fanatic Muslim, all of them are "Kufar", which should be dead.

Well I am not Turkish so I don't know why you are insulting me as such. You know there are other people, non Muslims, non Turkish, who do not support the actions of Israel. I know you are going to tell me there is a big lobby in every government against the Jews. Play the victim but people don't always buy it. We are no longer living in 1940s Europe. This is 2015 and Israel is far from being the victim. I am deeply passionate about supporting the Palestinians and it has nothing got to do with religion or nationality. It is a choice of what I believe is right and wrong. Too bad if you don't agree but your opinion is not going to influence me.

 

I'll continue with my boycotting smile.png

I believe that there is a great ignorance, in those people. Ignorance that the Arabic propaganda was able to use for the Arabic nations' interests. I guess, that you also boycott Turkey, if you aren't a Turkish. You know, fair is fair. Turkey's action are far more severe than Israel's and you know, you think you know everything in life, so I guess you also don't use smartphones, because they were made in China, which occupies Tibet, which is 50 times of Israel. And it goes on and on.

I won't apology, that Israel is the most intelligent country in the Middle East, and if the Arab nation hadn't have those oil revenues, they would have looked like, well, East Africa? 

I am not asking you to be different, I'm asking to be fair. Why can't you be fair?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You wrote: "We actually do have evidence that the Jews were in Israel 2000 years ago."

 

SaraGreen did not say there were no Jews in the region, she said "the Jewish tribes in Palestine were nothing more that one more group of goat herders among many other tribes"

You wrote: "Palestine declared its independence in 1964, so why can't be an international border between Israel and Palestine? I mean, if it is another country, which doesn't want to be part of Israel, why can't Israel have a border with it?"

Probably because Israel keeps expanding its borders at the expense of the Arab/Palestinian population?

You wrote: "you prefer burning persons to burning olive trees"

 

SaraGreen did not say that, you did.

You wrote: "Erdugan is returning his country to the ottoman era, not by its political influence that wasn't great at anytime, but the life standards of its citizens."

Perhaps he is, only time will tell, few people on this forum are fans of ErrorDawn.

You wrote: "Israel will continue to be rich, even if the American aid will be halted. It will be just more close to Turkey, though it will be still rich."

It is not just the finanacial aid Israel receives, it is that the USA backs up Israel's actions. Like the little yapping puppy which has its bull-dog father standing behind it.  If Israel gave up US Aid and told the US to go f*** itself, things would change drastically methinks.

You wrote: "I am not asking you to be different, I'm asking to be fair. Why can't you be fair?"

All of us started out with that intention.

 

The problem is you just do not want to admit that Israel has become one of the bad guys these days; just like the USA, just like China, just like Turkey with its authoritarian PM, you are in good company it seems.  All "good guy" countries eventually become "bad guys" because of the facade and glamour of power and hegemony.  Instead of rockin' and rollin' about how benevolent Israel is toward its Arab/Palestinian population, maybe you should spend time trying to see the other side. The Palestinians are not necessarily "good guys" either, but their "cause" seems to be far more legitimate in the eyes of the rest of the world, including many Jewish people, than the belligerance of Israel.

 

I know a lot of Chinese who believe their goernment is wrong, I am from the States, I will not go back there because of its creeping Facism, many, many Turkish citizens believe their government is doing wrong thins and would like to see their PM and his political party dumped--perhaps, into the ground? The difference between those of use who disagree with the policies of their governments and you, is that like all Zionists you will not admit that what you Israel has done is wrong.  Zionists are the bulk of the problem and will never be part of a positive political solution; unless you count the elimination of all Palestinian Arabs as a "final solution."

You know, having a conversation with you is like trying to argue with an empty parking lot.  Maybe you're just a troll, trying to get more anti-Palestinian arguments onto the web.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You wrote: "We actually do have evidence that the Jews were in Israel 2000 years ago."

 

1.

SaraGreen did not say there were no Jews in the region, she said "the Jewish tribes in Palestine were nothing more that one more group of goat herders among many other tribes"

You wrote: "Palestine declared its independence in 1964, so why can't be an international border between Israel and Palestine? I mean, if it is another country, which doesn't want to be part of Israel, why can't Israel have a border with it?"

2.

Probably because Israel keeps expanding its borders at the expense of the Arab/Palestinian population?

You wrote: "you prefer burning persons to burning olive trees"

 

3.

SaraGreen did not say that, you did.

You wrote: "Erdugan is returning his country to the ottoman era, not by its political influence that wasn't great at anytime, but the life standards of its citizens."

Perhaps he is, only time will tell, few people on this forum are fans of ErrorDawn.

You wrote: "Israel will continue to be rich, even if the American aid will be halted. It will be just more close to Turkey, though it will be still rich."

5.

It is not just the finanacial aid Israel receives, it is that the USA backs up Israel's actions. Like the little yapping puppy which has its bull-dog father standing behind it.  If Israel gave up US Aid and told the US to go f*** itself, things would change drastically methinks.

6.

You wrote: "I am not asking you to be different, I'm asking to be fair. Why can't you be fair?"

All of us started out with that intention.

 

The problem is you just do not want to admit that Israel has become one of the bad guys these days; just like the USA, just like China, just like Turkey with its authoritarian PM, you are in good company it seems.  All "good guy" countries eventually become "bad guys" because of the facade and glamour of power and hegemony.  Instead of rockin' and rollin' about how benevolent Israel is toward its Arab/Palestinian population, maybe you should spend time trying to see the other side. The Palestinians are not necessarily "good guys" either, but their "cause" seems to be far more legitimate in the eyes of the rest of the world, including many Jewish people, than the belligerance of Israel.

 

I know a lot of Chinese who believe their goernment is wrong, I am from the States, I will not go back there because of its creeping Facism, many, many Turkish citizens believe their government is doing wrong thins and would like to see their PM and his political party dumped--perhaps, into the ground? The difference between those of use who disagree with the policies of their governments and you, is that like all Zionists you will not admit that what you Israel has done is wrong.  Zionists are the bulk of the problem and will never be part of a positive political solution; unless you count the elimination of all Palestinian Arabs as a "final solution."

You know, having a conversation with you is like trying to argue with an empty parking lot.  Maybe you're just a troll, trying to get more anti-Palestinian arguments onto the web.

1. well what she claimed is wrong. In 10 BC  for example the Jews were the majority in Judea, which included also West Jordan(east to the Jordan River) of our times.

2.

Well if what you said was right, why Israel hasn't occupied Jordan? I mean, The Jordan Army  is far weaker than the IDF. The Israeli Government can occupy Jordan within a day.

3.

So why didn't she mention the crimes that were made against Israelis?

5.if you really believe, that Israel's existence depends on whether The US supports us or not, I believe that you need to learn history. I mean, the US was not supporting Israel till the '60s.

6. if your intention is  to be fair, you can't argue that Israel is the new South Africa, because this is not right, and if you are fair, you can't boycott only Israel, you must boycott Turkey and China too. but you don't.

The situation in Turkey and China is much severe. The Kurdish culture for example is depressed by Turkey.

In Israel, Arabic is recognized as one of its official languages. Something that the Kurdish dream about it in Turkey. In Israel, Arabs are judges and ministers and PMs, something that the Kurdish can only dream about it in Turkey. So if Israel is an apartheid state, let's be fair, if so,on the same analogy, Turkey is Nazi Germany. I don't think that Turkey is Nazi,and I don't think that Israel is the new South Africa. Let us all be fair. Because, Turkey has nothing to be proud of, in terms of human rights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you 16 years old, stand w/is?

No, I'm not a minor, though I can't understand how is that related to the debate.

In this debate I showed, that Israel is discriminated, especially in the Muslim world for being Jewish.

I showed that, Muslim communities tend to attack Jewish communities.

I also showed that the boycott on Israel is very biased.

None of those claims got any contradictions,

So, can I assume that you all accept those? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

standwithisrael wrote: "can I assume that you all accept those?"

No, nope, not at all, of course not.

 

You have not shown any good argument about Israel-Turkey relations which was the original reason for your OP.  If you mean the leadership of the two countries, then the relationship is strained but not broken.

 

If you are talking about the average citizen then I do not see much of a problem. There are still many Israeli citizens coming to Turkey on holidays. Where are the news items about Israelis being discriminated against, about them being hurt, or about them not being shown a good welcome? Please enlighten us if you can show this is everywhere in Turkey.  I know Americans who are afraid to come here, the same may be true of some Israelis, but where are the facts to support these irrational fears?

 

The policies of the Israeli government toward Palestinians is disliked and even hated by many people, not just Muslims around the world.  That does not mean the Israeli people are disliked or hated.  A poll was taken a few years ago and Turkey came in at the top of anti-American feelings amongst the people. However, when you get on the street, the "anti-Americanism" is against the policies of the US government. The same is true for Israelis. 

 

The rest of this is actually off topic and we have all butted our heads against the wall on this.

This dislike or hate of Israeli policies is in spite of the best efforts of the very powerful Israeli lobby in Washington, the American diaspora, many of whom are wealthy and influential, and the tendency of the western press to be biased in favor of Israel.

 

I cannot find where you have explained how Israel lost so much good will in the last 20+ years.  When I was a teenager and on into my young adult years, (1960's - 70's) Israel was the darling of the western world, they could do no wrong, perhaps that was the problem. Israel started acting like a spoiled child and a bully while the rest of the "western" world ignored it. Westerners consistently wrote that Israel was the only democracy in the Middle East. They were conveniently overlooking Turkey's long march toward democracy. Why? Notably because Turkey has a majority Muslim population.

 

The "Muslim" lobby has its hands full trying to keep the rest of the world from branding all Muslims as terrorists.

 

Israel has been consistently grabbing land from the Palestinian Arabs, especially the West Bank,  and when the Palestinians resist and fight back, Israel becomes the victim? How do you expect any reasonable person to swallow that?  Muslims attack Isrelis, Israelis attack Muslims, Muslims attack Isrelis, Israelis attack Muslims, yada, yada, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

The Israeli boycott is just one of many boycotts around the world.  Boycott is a bit of a stretch, Israel does a thriving world-wide business in information technology and weapons exports.  Read the news and get your head out of the sand, look at Russian, China, or North Korea.

Calls for Boycotts in 2014:

  • World Cup
  • Winter Olympics
  • Russia because of Ukraine
  • Cuba (since 1963)
  • North Korea
  • China
  • Jews calling for boycotts of Hungary
  • Environmental boycotts too many to mention
  • Boycotts of consumer goods too many to mention because of sweatshop hiring

Israel is not the only country in the world being protested against. So stop complaining that life is not fair, because life is not fair! 

Look at the many anti-Muslim tirades in the news, in those, Muslim and terrorist almost always share the same sentence. Not fair!  So Muslims are going to have to do a better job of telling the world that they are not all terrorists. There is an invisible but persistent campaign to brand Muslims as terrorists. Many of those campaigns are sponsored by Israeli PAC's and other business and lobbying groups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, As a relatively modern Turk, I would answer this topic with a real long entry but unfortunately I'm too lazy to write all the details. I'll write a short one instead:

 

Erdogan was a worker at the Istanbul municipal with no qualification. He can't even show his university degree because its fake. He was raised by support of Western Actors to build some sort of "Islamic Democracy" In Turkey. Now he gained full power thanks to uneducated majority who were fooled by religion, They worship him with such blindless which I am still being surprised by it. 

 

Not all of us want Turkey to become next Iran but unfortunately majority do. If you look at the educated people in Turkey, vast majority of them hate Erdogan and his dictatorship except the ones who benefit from it.

 

I'm trying not to give a f.ck about politics and current events so hard that I don't even watch news - not even TV. I've given up all my hopes about Turkey and most likely I'll move to another country if things keep getting worse like this.

 

Yes, that was my short answer.

 

By the way, neither Erdogan nor the leaders of Israel are humanist & peaceful ones. I won't discuss about which killer is worse than the other.

 

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

standwithisrael wrote: "can I assume that you all accept those?"

No, nope, not at all, of course not.

 

1)You have not shown any good argument about Israel-Turkey relations which was the original reason for your OP.  If you mean the leadership of the two countries, then the relationship is strained but not broken.

 

2)If you are talking about the average citizen then I do not see much of a problem. There are still many Israeli citizens coming to Turkey on holidays. Where are the news items about Israelis being discriminated against, about them being hurt, or about them not being shown a good welcome? Please enlighten us if you can show this is everywhere in Turkey.  I know Americans who are afraid to come here, the same may be true of some Israelis, but where are the facts to support these irrational fears?

 

3)The policies of the Israeli government toward Palestinians is disliked and even hated by many people, not just Muslims around the world.  That does not mean the Israeli people are disliked or hated.  A poll was taken a few years ago and Turkey came in at the top of anti-American feelings amongst the people. However, when you get on the street, the "anti-Americanism" is against the policies of the US government. The same is true for Israelis. 

 

4)The rest of this is actually off topic and we have all butted our heads against the wall on this.

This dislike or hate of Israeli policies is in spite of the best efforts of the very powerful Israeli lobby in Washington, the American diaspora, many of whom are wealthy and influential, and the tendency of the western press to be biased in favor of Israel.

 

5)I cannot find where you have explained how Israel lost so much good will in the last 20+ years.  When I was a teenager and on into my young adult years, (1960's - 70's) Israel was the darling of the western world, they could do no wrong, perhaps that was the problem. Israel started acting like a spoiled child and a bully while the rest of the "western" world ignored it. Westerners consistently wrote that Israel was the only democracy in the Middle East. They were conveniently overlooking Turkey's long march toward democracy. Why? Notably because Turkey has a majority Muslim population.

 

6)The "Muslim" lobby has its hands full trying to keep the rest of the world from branding all Muslims as terrorists.

 

7)Israel has been consistently grabbing land from the Palestinian Arabs, especially the West Bank,  and when the Palestinians resist and fight back, Israel becomes the victim? How do you expect any reasonable person to swallow that?  Muslims attack Isrelis, Israelis attack Muslims, Muslims attack Isrelis, Israelis attack Muslims, yada, yada, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

8)The Israeli boycott is just one of many boycotts around the world.  Boycott is a bit of a stretch, Israel does a thriving world-wide business in information technology and weapons exports.  Read the news and get your head out of the sand, look at Russian, China, or North Korea.

Calls for Boycotts in 2014:

  • World Cup
  • Winter Olympics
  • Russia because of Ukraine
  • Cuba (since 1963)
  • North Korea
  • China
  • Jews calling for boycotts of Hungary
  • Environmental boycotts too many to mention
  • Boycotts of consumer goods too many to mention because of sweatshop hiring

Israel is not the only country in the world being protested against. So stop complaining that life is not fair, because life is not fair!

Look at the many anti-Muslim tirades in the news, in those, Muslim and terrorist almost always share the same sentence. Not fair!  So Muslims are going to have to do a better job of telling the world that they are not all terrorists. There is an invisible but persistent campaign to brand Muslims as terrorists. Many of those campaigns are sponsored by Israeli PAC's and other business and lobbying groups.

 

1) Well I did, I showed that Turkey has begun the conflict, and therefore, Turkey must end its aggression toward Israel.

2)Actually it HAD happened that JEWISH Israeli tourists had been discriminated at the Airport, this led to another boycott over tourism in Turkey.

3) It is not true. Anti-Israelism and anti-Zionism is far more widespread at Muslims communities than any place on the glob. The Turkish don't want to ruin America, though some of them do want to destroy Israel. in much more significant percentage.

4)Again with those blood libels? The Jews don't have as much influence as the Muslims do. The Muslims have oil and resources, The Jews have only 0.2% of the Middle East. How the hell are they blamed for so many crimes? while in other places in the region so many other minorities are depressed, much more crudely? I mean, Israel has nothing that Muslims used to see as part of their culture. Till the 19th century, Palestine was a desert, with swamps on the shore. From whom supposedly, the Jews has stolen their land? from the camels?

5) Well Israel has made some stupid mistakes, that it pays for them. By recognizing that the Arabs on the West Bank are not part of Jordan, where they are, by the way the majority right now (on the eastern bank of the Jordan River). The Palestinians have already a country, which they are the majority within. Jordan has 4 times the territory of Israel. By dealing with the Palestinians as another people, who supposedly, not Jordanian, Israel has opened the door for its critics. I can't see the differences, between the Palestinians who are Western to the river, and those who are eastern. Actually, when those territories were free, they were under a Jordanian rule. So I can't get it, how come Israel is whom to blame? 

6)By inspiring the Muslim Brothers to shoot over Israel rockets. Can you imagine the Kurdish fire over Ankara rockets? I can't and the Turkish must understand, that this situations is not acceptable in Israel either. we shall never live under rockets.

7) Well because they have already a state which its majority is Palestinians? Because it's much larger than "West Palestine"?

8)The boycott over Israel is far larger than any other countries in the list. Though Israel supposedly, depresses far smaller population than all of these countries. Israel is called the new South Africa, though we all know that Israel is the only free democracy in the Middle East. Not Lebanon, and because Erdugan not even Turkey. I didn't ask life to be fair, I ask you to be fair. Aren't you a decent man?

Well, As a relatively modern Turk, I would answer this topic with a real long entry but unfortunately I'm too lazy to write all the details. I'll write a short one instead:

 

Erdogan was a worker at the Istanbul municipal with no qualification. He can't even show his university degree because its fake. He was raised by support of Western Actors to build some sort of "Islamic Democracy" In Turkey. Now he gained full power thanks to uneducated majority who were fooled by religion, They worship him with such blindless which I am still being surprised by it. 

 

1)Not all of us want Turkey to become next Iran but unfortunately majority do. If you look at the educated people in Turkey, vast majority of them hate Erdogan and his dictatorship except the ones who benefit from it.

 

2)I'm trying not to give a f.ck about politics and current events so hard that I don't even watch news - not even TV. I've given up all my hopes about Turkey and most likely I'll move to another country if things keep getting worse like this.

 

Yes, that was my short answer.

 

3)By the way, neither Erdogan nor the leaders of Israel are humanist & peaceful ones. I won't discuss about which killer is worse than the other.

 

Thanks.

1)Why? Iran is poorer than Turkey.

2)Where? Germany? I know that Turks have something with that nation.

3) Israel killed people, but only to protect its citizens. Isn't it honorable?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...