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Verbs Involving Would

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In English grammar, that's actually the second part of the past unreal conditional + continuous tense:

If-clause: [had been + present participle]

Result: [would have been + present participle]

The first part of the example clause you gave, the If-clause, is often "understood" in English (something like "If it had been my decision to make...); the example clause you gave is the result. My Turkish is at a pre-K level so I can't help much with the translation, but perhaps translating the entire if/then combination (If it had been my decision to make, [then] I would not have chosen this color) might make it more clear in translation to Turkish. Any thoughts?

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Hi LIP! I'm glad that you posted this, as I am aware this is a hole in my own Turkish and haven't yet gotten to it (it's in the very last chapter of huge, two-volume book! So I guess it's considered a little "hard" as the grammar is gradiated from easy/most commonly used to more challenging. Posted Image )

If you and others would like, I can scan the pages from my book and we can work through them together. One of the nice things is that there is an answer key for the exercises. I would like to have this down by the time I arrive in Turkey in a few weeks.

I don't know if that would be against the rules, though, i.e. photocopying copyright materials and attaching them. If so, I could paraphrase the rules and the exercises.

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I would've said the same as Sunny .... "o rengi seçmezdim". Actually "seçmeyecektim" sounds more like it means "I wasn't going to choose that colour...(but)..." (?) Maybe they overlap slightly in meaning ??? Here's hoping Saffron comes along to straighten us out ! :)

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Instead of comparing all the relevant material, because it is impossible to compare them unless a proper context is available, let's compare seçmeyecektim with seçmezdim.

When do we say 'seçmezdim'? Let's think about these sentences :Eğer ben senin yerinde olsaydım o rengi seçmezdim (If I were instead of you...)Eğer biraz daha genç olsaydım o rengi seçmezdim (If I were a little younger..)Eğer mevsim yaz olsaydı o rengi seçmezdim (If it (the season) were summer...)or Eğer mevsim yaz olmasaydı o rengi seçmezdim (If it were not summer..)Senin sevmediğini bilseydim o rengi seçmezdim : If I had known that you didnt like it..

The common point is that, at the present moment we have no other choice. I am not instead of you, and I cannot be. I am not a little younger, and I cannot be. The season is not summer, and cannot change overnight, or the season is summer , so I have to choose that colour. I hadn't known that you didn't like that colour, I know now but it is too late. Please note that, some of the possibilities are real, some unreal. I cannot be instead of you, this is totaly imaginary, but I had a chance to know that you didn't like that colour, but somehow I didn't know. So shortly 'if it were like this, this would be like that' is the logic behind.

Seçmeyecektim, however, can be thought as 'it was not my intend to choose that colour'. Meral's translation is right 'I wasn't going to choose that colour. But thinking Turkishwise, what we understand from 'seçmeyecektim' is that there is a difference between the original plan and the result. On these occassions Turkish speakers add 'aslında' : 'Aslında o rengi seçmeyecektim': Actually my intend was not to choose that colour. 'Ama sen fikrimi değiştirdin' : but you changed my mind..

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Hi again--The file is too big to attach, so if anyone would like it, pm me with your email address and I will be happy to send it. :-)I do think the book is a little round-about in its explanation. Basically it is exactly as Saffron says: there are two ways of communicating "would" in Turkish. The first way is if something really is possible, and the second way is if something is impossible or not very likely.

If something is possible, you take the verb stem, followed by the tense suffix, add the conditional suffix, which is (y)sA, and finish with the personal endings, which are the same personal endings as the definite past tense. You then complete the sentence with a verb in the appropriate tense. I saw my Turkish tutor today, and basically the "safest" tense for the finite verb in these sentences is the aorist, as it is the broadest. The (y) in the above formula refers to the need of adding a buffer y if the verb stem ends in a vowel.

The capital A in sA refers to two-way vowel-harmony--use sa if the last vowel in the preceding syllable is an a, ı, o, or u, and use se if the last vowel in the preceding syllable is an e, i, ö, or ü.

The personal endings areBen - mSen - nO - no personal endingBiz - kSiz - nız or niz following 2-way vowel harmony rulesOnlar -- lar or ler following 2-way vowel harmony rulesAn example in the book is: Hava güzel olursa parka gideriz. "If the weather is good, we'll go to the park." (There is a real possibility the weather will be good.)olursa = olmak with the verb stem of "ol" + the aorist tense suffix of "ur" + the conditional suffix "sa." There is no personal ending because the subject "hava" is in the third person singular. The finite verb "gideriz" is in the aorist. Another example is: İlacını düzenli içmezsen, iyi olamazsın. "If you don't take your medication regularly, you can't get well." içmezsen = içmek with the verb stem of "iç" + the aorist negative tense suffix of "mez" + the conditional suffix "se" which takes the "e" instead of the "a" because of the "e" in "mez" and finishes with the personal suffix for sen which is "n". The finite verb "olamazsın" is negative aorist.

If something is not really very possible, everything is the same as the above, except instead of using a tense suffix, you add "sA" right to the verb stem. Also, there is no buffer "y" for verb stems that end in a vowel. Those are the only two differences. So the formula is: verb stem, followed by the conditional suffix, "sA", and finish with the personal endings, which are the same personal endings as the definite past tense.

An example in the book was "Süpermen olsam havada uçarım." (If I was Superman, I'd fly in the air.)olsam = "ol" (stem of olmak) immediately followed by the "sa" suffix, and ending with "m" which the personal ending for Ben.

Another example is "Bin yıl yaşasam bütün arzularımı yerine getiririm." (If I were to live a thousand years, I would fulfill all my desires."yaşasam = "yaşa" (stem of yaşamak) immediately followed by the "sa" suffix (no buffer y), and ending with "m" which the personal ending for Ben.

I've studied the section for a few hours now, and I feel like I'm starting to get it. I'm really glad you brought it up, because I was really wondering about it to, but was intimidated because it's one of the last things in the book, and I wasn't slated to get "there" for another couple months. :-)

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As I wrote above, this topic is too detailed, and can be understood only in a proper context. Conceptualization of time, possibilities, probabilities, as inherent in a language can be re-examined only with the help of a context. For instance, let's take the example of a superman. Do we have a chance to be Superman? If yes, if we have a hope to become Superman we can say: 'Süpermen olsam havada uçarım' But if we have no chance, if this is only a wish that will never come true, then we say: 'süpermen olsaydım havada uçardım.'Likewise, a Turkish speaker normaly doesn't say 'bin yıl yaşasam', as it is totally unrealistic, but say 'bin yıl yaşasaydım' instead. There is an exception for this, however, but I'm afraid it is confusing even for an advanced learner.

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As I wrote above, this topic is too detailed, and can be understood only in a proper context.

That may be true, but I thought this was an opportunity for people to study together if they liked, and LIP, who started this thread, expressed an interest. Since the pdf was too big to upload, I paraphrased the main rule. It is true that it isn't comprehensive--the pdf of the section of the book is more so. I personally find it hard to learn by example without rules being stated--I couldn't really make out the rules in your first example, for instance. As for the examples in my response, they come directly from the book so I can't speak to them, but I went over them yesterday with my tutor, who is a a Turkish Ph.d in linguistics who teaches Turkish at a local university, and he did not mention finding the sentence odd. i understand you are the resident linguistic expert, which I both respect and admire and as beginning learner of Turkish I am certainly not in the position to to claim mastery. But I do think there is room for members to study things here among themselves, using the board as a communication vehicle, if they are amenable to do so. If anyone sees obviously wrong information or other flailing, it would be a kindness to step in, but I don't think it is necessary to call for a halt in the exploration of the topic just because it is a complex one.
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I am not in a position to prove what I said is right or wrong, simply because, I can only discuss over the topic with the person who found nothing odd in the sentence in question. In other words, I cannot discuss over the topic with a non-native speaker.

I often say 'a context is needed' because people cannot discuss over formulas of a language,and, again as I often say there is not one to one correspondence between the English tense and the Turkish tenses. If you write 'süpermen olsam' as the equivalent of 'if I was superman'and if the readers are not capable yet to distinguish the probable future from just a wish, then the learning process will become even more difficult.

But if you have decided to continue with this topic and probably with any other topic, with your reference books and the person you mentioned, ok, there is left nothing to do for me here.

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I can understand how, as there is no direct translation, the context is important. In this case, I had ordered some items online and the firm had sent the wrong color nail polish (I am aware its not a life and death matter!) I would not have chosen that color myself, but wanted to ask a Turkish friend what they thought of it - and it made me realise that I was not sure how to say this in Turkish.

Several people have recommended 'seçmezdim' .... aorist plus past .... I use this to mean 'used to' or as a negative 'did not use to' ... so would have thought using that option would mean 'I didn't use to choose this color'.....which sounds a bit strange, but possible. But in this case, 'I' would be deciding to choose this color so the desired meaning is not the same.

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LIP, I copied your question and also Sunny's sentence and asked my tutor about it, He said that both were perfectly correct. The difference is that your sentence means, "I was not going to choose this color," and Sunny's means, "I would not have chosen this color." Semantically, that seems pretty close to me. In any case, I'm impressed with what you did say, as that is another verb form with which I am unfamiliar! Posted Image (It's also true that the how-to I posted about is for future or present verbs; there is a section on using the conditionals with the past verbs in the pdf that I made on conditionals.)

I agree that while it's nice to know the "answer" as to how to say an exact phrase, it's so much better if one can understand how to do it oneself. It's sort of like the whole, "give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach him to fish and he eats every day" situation: while it's interesting to know the "answer" to the specific question, I think it's far more useful to use the question to learn how to master the form one finds puzzling.

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the semantic difference between the two really depends on the situation and context (at least in English):

I was not going to choose this color.

- I wanted another color, but they didn't have it, so I got this one instead.*

- I thought this was another color, but now that I see it in better light, I realize that it's not the color I wanted.

- I wanted another color, but I was in a hurry and this one is close enough to what I really wanted.

vs

I would not have chosen this color.

- My intention was to choose another color, but the circumstances caused me to choose this one.*

- You chose this nasty-ass color, but I think it looks like Posted Image .

*The first examples for each statement are very similar, and in that situation they would more or less be interchangeable; the others, not so much. There are obviously other possible examples for each, but you get the gist.

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