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Head Scarf Controversy


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#21 sunny

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 08:58 PM

'..............some dress in the typical Arab way in black covered from head to toe and the reminder don't do either. Gosh Abi, do many in your area dress in the Arab style, I've never noticed it on programmes about the Black Sea area?
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#22 Abi

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 09:08 PM

Not a huge amount Sunny, when I go down to city I usually see maybe 12 walking around. But there are a lot that walk around in all seasons with long coats, scarves and gloves, I don't know how they do it in the heat of the summer.

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#23 benhalterci

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 10:27 PM

Having lived in Russia for so long the thing that struck me when I came to TR were the many similarities and, amongst those, the cult of Ataturk being so similar to the cult of Lenin. Things are a little different now but when I was there every room in every office, especially official ones had a picture of Lenin. And you would really get in hot water if you dared to criticise his teachings.Btw,the little red enamel flag badges the deputies wear are the same ones as the Communists used to wear just with star and crescent instead of hammer and sickle.

#24 sunny

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 10:44 PM

Put your big spoon away BenH! :animatedfear[1]: :head_hurts_kr[1]:
ALWAYS FORGIVE YOUR ENEMIES; NOTHING ANNOYS THEM MORE! ~~~Oscar Wilde~~~

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#25 yeliz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 03:23 AM

I noticed in the news the other day that the CHP party was again trying to illicit votes from women who are covered.Amazing that a party can so openly tout for votes from people they wouldn't have thrown water on had they been on fire.While Erdogan again confirmed that he would defend a women's right to be covered he would also defend the right's of women not to be covered.The CHP party are desperate to grab votes any which way and would I think throw 'Ataturk's' reforms to the dogs in an attempt to gain the upper hand.Deniz Baykal the leader of the CHP party, I have no doubts will be making his own wife cover when Erdogan wins the next election.Next time I post will try to have some joined up thoughts but having read through everyones comments, didn't want to re-invent the wheel.

#26 sunny

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:58 AM

If you watch Turkish TV you will see that what the CHP are doing is nothing compared to what the AKP are doing.They have been giving away brand new fridges, cookers, sofas, washing machines and smaller items as well.Some of the recipients of washing machines said that is would be good if someone would pipe water supplies to their village then they could use the machines!There were scenes of people carrying the goods to their homes through the snow.In Diarbakir hopital they ran out of space to store medicines and so they are having to use space at the university. They apparently have enough supplies for 4,000 years! The TV showed row upon row of boxes of medicines stacked on row upon rows of shelves.
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#27 Ken

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:08 AM

I think I can explain something from an earlier post, about the "WWAD" bracelets. It is very relevant to this topic. Let me first explain the reference to the "WWAD" bracelets.In the United States, a lot of Christian youth wear bracelets which say "WWJD?" It means, "What Would Jesus Do?" If you wear the WWJD bracelet, it is a reminder to ask yourself "what would Jesus do, in this situation," a reminder to do the right and good thing, even if it doesn't benefit you, to do the right thing in all situations... to do what Jesus would have done in the same situation.Me? I'm a BIG Ataturk fanatic. He's a personal hero to me, and I revere his memory as I would the memory of George Washington as an American. I've read his writings, and his biography, and I think he's right for the future of Turkey, even for today (that's my personal opinion). Sure, he had his faults, but no country in the World could every ask for anyone as dedicated to his country's future as Ataturk was.So here's the relevance of my post. Sometimes I talk with Turks and ask them (and myself):What would Ataturk do (WWAD) or say, if he were to come back to life and visit the parliament? What would Ataturk do after seeing Turkey as it is today?So... What do you think Ataturk would do (WWAD)? Any ideas from other Ataturk fanatics like me?

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#28 baykus

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 11:21 AM

Well he made it quite clear that he was against headscarves and associated thinking seeing them as a way to hold Turkey back. He wanted a modern Turkey that could take her place in Europe and the world.It is unfortunate that the parties that support his ideas don't seem to have a charismatic leader to bring together the parties under one leadership.It seems that the 'Powers that be' are trying to undermine the local 'other parties' by arresting various Mayors in the Izmir area prior to the local elections in March. (Guzelbahce & Alacati that I know of)
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#29 janh

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 12:04 AM

Well he made it quite clear that he was against headscarves and associated thinking seeing them as a way to hold Turkey back. He wanted a modern Turkey that could take her place in Europe and the world.It is unfortunate that the parties that support his ideas don't seem to have a charismatic leader to bring together the parties under one leadership.It seems that the 'Powers that be' are trying to undermine the local 'other parties' by arresting various Mayors in the Izmir area prior to the local elections in March. (Guzelbahce & Alacati that I know of)

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#30 sunny

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 12:20 PM

I think you are preaching to the converted here Janh. I am not the only one who is very concerned that the fundamentalists will force their ideas and ways on the rest of the population.The government seems to be taking steps to strengthen their ties with Iran, a country which does not give people freedom of speech and relegates women to lower status. I saw an article recently about a woman who used (with others) to be a Judge in Iran but she and her fellows were demoted to clerical positions even though they initially had welcomed the revolution.If Turkey goes this way then I cannot see it becoming a member of the EU although I don't support that move either because, for everyday Turks, life will become even more difficult having to deal with the multitude of, often petty, rules and regulations set by that expensive club!
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#31 yeliz

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 03:05 AM

For at least the last two decades under different leaders who have governed under the democratic banner and emphasised the secular state that was set out by Ataturk, have forbidden the headscarf.Who are the fundamendalists, who want to force their ideas on the rest of the population.Are we seriously saying that the headscarf will bring down civilisation as we know it, what ideas are we talking about?If you are covered you are unable to attend university, work in a government building, seriously is this democracy?You mention "everyday Turks", aren't these the ones that are covered, what about their democratic rights. Religion and culture go hand in hand, noone I think would want to ban 'seker bayram' most people see the bayrams as events that are shared by believers and non believers.I believe that Erdogan is trying to bring balance to the way in which Turkey is governed, it is now more inclusive. I would ask you, who put Erdogan in power, who voted for him.Erdogan is the first prime minister with an overall majority for a long time, and the people that voted for him are from many different backgrounds and political ideaologies.I don't know why people are so nervous around this subject, it is not the be all and end all to Turkey.And where do you people live? :hysterical[1]: where all these fundamentalist Teyze's hang out, these headscarf mafia who what! threaten you with their prayer rugs. Come on, lets be real.Everyday Turks are covered and uncovered, who live side by side and have the hopes and expectations that are part of life for everyone. :spacecraft[1]: Most of the Turks I know are good muslims and quite nationalistic, but mostly just trying to get by from one day to the next.

#32 sunny

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 10:51 AM

I don't know why people are so nervous around this subject, it is not the be all and end all to Turkey.And where do you people live? huh.gif where all these fundamentalist Teyze's hang out, these headscarf mafia who what! threaten you with their prayer rugs. Come on, lets be real.

The reason a lot of people are nervous about the AK party is that they have seen what has happened in Iran and what is happening in other countries.As long as religious people get on with their lives and don't try to force religeous beliefs on others then fine but you only have to see that recent Panorama programme(Muslim first British second shown on BBC1 16th Feb.) to see that they have other ideas. I really don't understand why they want to try to take over the world instead of living peacefully. I find it very frightening and although normally I would agree about freedom for women for those misguided women who want to wear headscarves but many believe it is the thin end of the wedge.

Most of the Turks I know are good muslims and quite nationalistic, but mostly justtrying to get by from one day to the next.

I would agree with that but if Turkey goes into the EU life for most Turks will get worse as prices will rise as businesses will have to change to accomodate the new laws and a lot of small businesses will go to the wall.

You mention "everyday Turks", aren't these the ones that are covered, what about their democratic rights.

What democratic rights do women have in Iran, Saudi Arabia etc?
ALWAYS FORGIVE YOUR ENEMIES; NOTHING ANNOYS THEM MORE! ~~~Oscar Wilde~~~

ALL OF US COULD TAKE A LESSON FROM THE WEATHER. IT PAYS NO ATTENTION TO CRITICISM.

#33 yeliz

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 02:56 AM

My first holiday to Turkey, we were told by our holiday rep that Turkey was a secular country but that it was 99% muslim. The 99% is debatable but I think you may agree that a large section of the population of Turkey are muslim. Nothing has changed in Turkey in all of those years, its still secular and still has lots of muslims! The reason a lot of people are nervous about the AK party is that they have seen what has happened in Iran and what is happening in other countries.What has happened in Iran? Other than that country not taking any rubbish from America, or should I say Bush. Obama looks to be making contact and maybe there might some common ground on which an understanding might be saught. I don't know about other countries.As long as religious people get on with their lives and don't try to force religeous beliefs on others then fine but you only have to see that recent Panorama programme(Muslim first British second shown on BBC1 16th Feb.) to see that they have other ideas. Most muslims in Britain just want to live their lives, these programmes are designed to pick out those with radical views and whip up predjudice and anti muslim feeling. I don't think you would ask a Catholic, "are you Irish first or Catholic". We are obsessed in this country with the question of loyalty. Why should a group of people be subjected to the weighing up of their religious beliefs and nationality.I really don't understand why they want to try to take over the world instead of living peacefully. I find it very frightening and although normally I would agree about freedom for women for those misguided women who want to wear headscarves but many believe it is the thin end of the wedge. Women covering their heads is the thin edge of the wedge :) I'm sorry I have a hard time understanding this. Why is it everytime that women are misguided. In my opinnion each time women have done something for themselves it is almost always attributed to some misguided idea that we had :blink: If a woman says that wearing the scarf is her freedom why is that misguided and wars that are started in the name of Democracy are not seen has the thin edge of the wedge.As far as I am aware most Turks are astute,stubborn,self aware and nobody's fool, so would not be taken for a ride willingly by any party.Erdogan like Obama was voted in by people that wanted change. Do we think now that Obama will only look out for black people, no; and in the same vain Erdogan is responsible for all not some!I think I would draw your attention to the headscarf as being one of the most visable symbol of Islam and that it is being used as a whipping stick for muslims.

#34 sunny

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 01:45 PM

What has happened in Iran? Other than that country not taking any rubbish from America, or should I say Bush.

Currently, the Iranian constitution discriminates quite blatantly against women in areas such as child custody, marriage, divorce and inheritance. But it goes much further than that. Women are excluded from being President or a Judge in Iran. Even if they're standing before a judge, their testimony is worth half that of a man in court.Women need their husband's permission to travel abroad, and a man may forbid his wife from work if he deems that her work interferes with her duties to her family. Perhaps most startlingly, compensation due for the death of a Muslim woman is only half that due for the death of a Muslim man. Women's lives are literally worth half that of a man. We should note that this is not about Islam. It is about power. Women in Iran have not always been treated like this. Islam, like every religion, has many applications and interpretations. It is lived and practiced differently from one individual, family and country to another. Iranian Ayatollahs Sanei'i and Bojnourdi, for example, using dynamic jurisprudence and ijtahad have clearly outlined how women's rights may be easily and clearly respected through progressive interpretations of Sharia. However, there has been no desire by those in power to translate this into law.Jan.2007 BBC Iranian bloggers have reacted with anger and scorn to a new law requiring them to register their websites and blogsites with the authorities. It is being seen as the latest attempt by the Iranian government to control the media.April2007 BBC Two thousand young men in Iran have protested against new clothing curbs, reports say, amid growing discontent about a crackdown on un-Islamic dress. Shiraz university students were angry about new rules banning sleeveless T-shirts, even inside all-male dorms. The protest came as the judiciary head warned police that an excessively ferocious campaign could backfire. Police say they stopped more than 1,300 women for dressing immodestly on the first day of the campaign in Tehran. Foreign journalists have been prevented from filming women being arrested for un-Islamic clothing More than 100 women were arrested on Saturday; half of them had to sign statements promising to improve their clothing, the other half are being referred to court. The focus of the new campaign is to stop women wearing tight overcoats that reveal the shape of their bodies or showing too much hair from beneath their headscarves. However, young men have also been arrested for sporting wild hair styles or T-shirts considered immodestFeb.2009 Amnesty Iran: Catalogue of abuses detailed in new report on 30th anniversary of Islamic revolutionPosted: 06 February 2009As Iran prepares to mark the 30-year anniversary of the change in government that led to the creation of the Islamic Republic on 10 February, Amnesty International today issued a new report raising its concerns over a range of human rights abuses that have persisted over the past 30 years.Amnesty International has been documenting human rights violations in Iran since the middle of the 1960s.The report details a catalogue of ongoing human rights violations in the country, including:-Torture and other ill-treatment, including electric shocks, sexual abuse, sleep deprivation, beatings and suspending people from a height;-Extensive use of the death penalty, with at least 346 people executed in 2008 alone, including the execution of child offenders and two executions by stoning;-Arbitrary arrest, often by plain-clothes police without producing a warrant;-Unfair trials, often relying on 'confessions' extracted under torture;-Widespread discrimination against ethnic and religious minorities;-Severe restrictions on freedoms of belief, expression, association and assembly, including the closure of NGOs, newspapers and websites; -Discrimination against women, both in law and practice; -Impunity for past human rights abuses, including the 1988 'prison massacres'.Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen said:'People in Iran are still enduring a catalogue of human rights abuses, thirty years after the Islamic Revolution. 'Amnesty continues to record executions, torture and the arrest of people who voice dissenting opinions.'Hopes for human rights reforms have been all-but crushed since President Ahmadinejad took power. The Iranian authorities should turn their back on torture and unfair trials and release all prisoners of conscience.' So Yeliz if you hadn't heard before' what has happened' in Iran you now know some of it. Perhaps to you,living safely in the UK it is not important but to a lot of people here in Turkey it is and as I said before is one of the reasons that a lot of people are nervous and suspicious of religeous fundamentalists. Why I say wearing of the headscarf is misguided is because it is a retrograde step for women - the first thing fundamentalists do is to force women to at least cover their heads. It is a sign of subjugation. There is nothing in the Koran that says they have to cover their heads only to dress modestly.You still haven't explained why some Muslims are actively trying to force their religion on the world, like in days of old when Christians did the same. If they believe in Allah ok but it is the same God that Jews and Christians believe in and anyway who is to say any of those is the 'true' religion ? What religion (if any)you are, generally, is down to where you were born.If there is a god, a supreme being, why would she/he be bothered whether you wear a headscarf, never cut your hair, eat fish on Friday, are circumcised, are celebate etc. Surely it is more important to lead a good life, helping other people and animals and doing no harm and not trying to gain power and control over others than bothering about petty things?
ALWAYS FORGIVE YOUR ENEMIES; NOTHING ANNOYS THEM MORE! ~~~Oscar Wilde~~~

ALL OF US COULD TAKE A LESSON FROM THE WEATHER. IT PAYS NO ATTENTION TO CRITICISM.

#35 Izzy24

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 09:14 PM

Well said Sunny

You are on the ball with everything you say, I agree entirely with where your coming from....

Don't suppose you were able to see the Program last week on Islamic Prostitutes in Iran.... it was shown here in UK.... I watched with great interest. The 2 woman in particular that they were filming were married but their Husbands were in Prison (both were dealing in drugs) one had been given 35yrs....... Of course the woman were now left penniless with no way of supporting themselves or their children, hence turning to prostitution, (quite rife in Islam at the moment and getting worse) they had also become users of drugs themselves, all this was clearly shown in the program..... at one point it showed one of the woman walking along the road side, with her small son (about 4/5 yrs old) where she was propositioned by a man in a car who offered her very little money to go some where and have sex with him, I found it very disturbing that she promptly took up his offer and got in the car with her son....... the man was even asking the little boy what he thought would be a good price to pay his Mother........ it made me feel sick to my stomach I could have quite easily slapped the man had I been there......... here is a woman who feels she has no choice but to do this, and the men are just abusing them even more....

It also showed that quite a lot of already married men take it upon them selves to buy extra wifes, anything from a day to 99 yrs, I forget the actual name for the ceremony, it showed one man 65 yrs old who literally took a woman from the street (she was 16 yrs old) and asked her to become his wife, he offered her X amount and asked how long she would be willing to be his wife for, she agreed to 3 months I think, but after 1 month and receiving her pay she left him, he later offered the same contract to his neighbour, one of the woman being filmed for the program.....
During the time the woman agreed to stay with the men they are not allowed to go anywhere alone, not even to see their own Mother, the Man escorted the woman and later picked her up......... they were kept like slaves to be honest....

The man in question was asked why he thought it OK to do what he was doing, and he just replied that it was what Allah wanted him to do........ so if it's OK with Allah it must be the right thing to do......

I'm no way up on political awareness like your self, but I did understand that the country seems to be moving backwards not forwards, and all in the name of religion.........

I know this may offend some people but it's the truth it happens everywhere in the world........Some religious people are some of the most hypocritical people walking the earth, especially those who follow the Muslim faith.... religion has always been the downfall of mankind and will be for ever.

If there is a god, a supreme being, why would she/he be bothered whether you wear a headscarf, never cut your hair, eat fish on Friday, are circumcised, are celebate etc. Surely it is more important to lead a good life, helping other people and animals and doing no harm and not trying to gain power and control over others than bothering about petty things

Never a true word spoken......
Take Care...... Debbie

#36 yeliz

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:35 AM

So Yeliz if you hadn't heard before' what has happened' in Iran you now know some of it. Perhaps to you,living safely in the UK it is not important but to a lot of people here in Turkey it is and as I said before is one of the reasons that a lot of people are nervous and suspicious of religeous fundamentalists.

Thank you Sunny for the information on Iran but I really wanted to stay on the topic with Turkey, mainly because I spend my time in Turkey and not other countries. Although I only live in Turkey for six months of the year, and within that time spend some of it in Karaman which I'm sure you will know is very near Konya, I would say my knowledge is limited but I'm willing to listen. I don't understand what you mean by living in safety, are you not safe? Are you suggesting that women in Turkey are not safe and which women, covered or uncovered. Do you mean people in Turkey are fearing for their safety because of Iran?

You still haven't explained why some Muslims are actively trying to force their religion on the world, like in days of old when Christians did the same. If they believe in Allah ok but it is the same God that Jews and Christians believe in and anyway who is to say any of those is the 'true' religion ? What religion (if any)you are, generally, is down to where you were born.

I'm not sure what you mean here! Which muslims are you talking about and which countries are they forcing Islam on?

Why I say wearing of the headscarf is misguided is because it is a retrograde step for women - the first thing fundamentalists do is to force women to at least cover their heads. It is a sign of subjugation. There is nothing in the Koran that says they have to cover their heads only to dress modestly.

We can debate all day and night about what it says in the Quran but women wear the hijab that is a fact! and they will do so for many reasons but to explain to a non believer is not productive and people will only see what they want to.But you have to understand that there are women that are covered who do this with full understanding of what it means, who are not submissive or unequal.

If there is a god, a supreme being, why would she/he be bothered whether you wear a headscarf, never cut your hair, eat fish on Friday, are circumcised, are celebate etc. Surely it is more important to lead a good life, helping other people and animals and doing no harm and not trying to gain power and control over others than bothering about petty things.

I agree partly with your last statement that it is important to lead a good life, and if people don't want to believe in God that is their decision but if other people want to believe and practice, then generalisations should not be placed on them.I'm not sure what you mean by petty things, if you explain I'd like to come back on that.I'm sorry that I'm coming back with more questions than answers but the Iranian track you went down just threw me :)

#37 baykus

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 11:12 AM

Thank you Sunny for the information on Iran but I really wanted to stay on the topic with Turkey, mainly because I spend my time in Turkey and not other countries. Although I only live in Turkey for six months of the year, and within that time spend some of it in Karaman which I'm sure you will know is very near Konya, I would say my knowledge is limited but I'm willing to listen. I don't understand what you mean by living in safety, are you not safe? Are you suggesting that women in Turkey are not safe and which women, covered or uncovered. Do you mean people in Turkey are fearing for their safety because of Iran?

It seems to me pretty obvious what Sunny is saying. A lot of Turkish people are afraid that with a religeous orientated government that the same will happen in Turkey as happened in Iran. This is unlikely to happen in Britain that is why you are 'safe'.Perhaps if you already wear a headscarf and don't mindd being forbidden to wear t-shirts and shorts and swimming costumes in temperatures over 35 for a lot of the summer and are happy at being regarded by the fundamentalists as a second class citizen fine but a lot of people are not happy at the idea of these and many other restrictions as Sunny outlined in her post.
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#38 yeliz

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:38 PM

It seems to me pretty obvious what Sunny is saying. A lot of Turkish people are afraid that with a religeous orientated government that the same will happen in Turkey as happened in Iran. This is unlikely to happen in Britain that is why you are 'safe'.Perhaps if you already wear a headscarf and don't mindd being forbidden to wear t-shirts and shorts and swimming costumes in temperatures over 35 for a lot of the summer and are happy at being regarded by the fundamentalists as a second class citizen fine but a lot of people are not happy at the idea of these and many other restrictions as Sunny outlined in her post.

Hello BaykusIt may be obvious to you but it isn't to me that is why I have asked Sunny to explain in a little bit more detail. Safe is quite an emotive word,I remember that TonyBlair took us into a war with misleading information and believing that God was on his side (remember the tv interview ). Safe is a relative term. What has Erdogan done or said that gives you the idea that he is taking Turkey down the same road as Iran.I'm sorry which fundamentalists are treating covered women as second class, your making too many assumptions.Again I'm confused are we talking about Iran or Turkey, they are not the same and have no relation to each other.Also my friend, ask those around you (I'm assuming your in Turkey and not in Iran) who are covered if they feel threatened by fundamentalists or is the threat from people who don't understand the principles of Islam and the culture of the country they live in.

#39 sunny

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 02:49 PM

Also my friend, ask those around you (I'm assuming your in Turkey and not in Iran) who are covered if they feel threatened by fundamentalists or is the threat from people who don't understand the principles of Islam and the culture of the country they live in.

I do not know any covered Turkish ladies, all my neighbours(Turks) and Turkish friends, educated ladies who hold/held managerial positions, are very very concerned that the AK party have a hidden agenda which is not always hidden. They get very angry with the idea of an oppressive religious state being forced on them. A friend of ours is a prosecutor and he says there are many things going on against secularlism that concern him that he is not at liberty to divulge.For me it isn't a big problem because if people like those in Iran take over all I have to do is jump on a plane but for my neighbours and Turkish friends .................?

I'm sorry which fundamentalists are treating covered women as second class, your making too many assumptions

How many examples do you need? Just look at the info I gave you about Iran, look at Afghanistan when the fundamentalist Taliban were in power, look at Saudi Arabia. Those should be enough to concern any women.
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ALL OF US COULD TAKE A LESSON FROM THE WEATHER. IT PAYS NO ATTENTION TO CRITICISM.

#40 baykus

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 07:26 PM

Also my friend, ask those around you (I'm assuming your in Turkey and not in Iran) who are covered if they feel threatened by fundamentalists or is the threat from people who don't understand the principles of Islam and the culture of the country they live in.

I asked a Turkish neighbour what she thought of your statement. She said 'I think that most women in this country understand the principles of Islam and we understand the culture of our country. We are a secular state and follow the principles of our great leader Mutapha Kemal Ataturk who tried to take our country into the twentieth century while these people (fundamentalists) would take us back to the dark ages.' 'Who is she to question if we understand the principles of Islam and our country.'She did add a few more choice words which I won't translate.
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